Michael Gannon Interview

Michael Gannon Interview

PGCMLS Oral History

Interview with Michael Gannon about his experience as a Chief Operating Officer for Support Services for the Library System.

PGCMLS

Special Collections Staff

Dec 19, 2023

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English

Digital audio

200003

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45.20 min

Project:  PGCMLS Oral History Project
Chapter: Michael Gannon Interview
Date: Dec 19, 2023
Participants: 
Interviewer: Hannah Erickson. 
Interviewee: Michael Gannon.  

• 00:02 Hannah: All right, today is December 19, 2023 at the Hyattsville Branch Library of the Prince George’s County Memorial library System. My name is Hannah Erickson, Librarian II.  and I'm here with Michael Gannon, Chief Operating Officer for Support Services and twice Interim CEO. We are recording an interview with Michael as part of the PGCMLS Oral History Project. Thanks for being here today with us, Michael.

• 00:31 Michael: Sure, thanks for having me.
• 00:33 Hannah: Could you start by introducing yourself?
• 00:35 Michael: Yes, I'm Michael Gannon. As you said, I'm currently the Chief Operating Officer for Support Services for the Library,  which encompasses IT facilities, procurement, safety and security, business intelligence, and collection development, and all the capital projects.

• 00:57 Hannah: That's a lot of different hats.
• 00:59 Michael: It is. It is a lot of different hats. It's been a great learning experience to have my hand in each one of those areas.

• 01:10 Hannah: Could you tell us about your early experiences working in libraries? Like what position or positions have you held? I guess in other words, can you tell us about your career path?

• 01:19 Michael: Sure, so I've always worked in libraries. I was a page in high school and college for Anne Arundel County Public Library, one of our neighbors. When I graduated from college, I got a job as a library associate at the Crofton Library Branch, and I was not intending on having a library career. I was going to I was seeking out a master's degree in counseling psychology. I wanted to be a psychologist. My undergrad was in psychology and I realized after I was almost all the way through that master's program that I really didn't care for that career path and that I was really enjoying what I was doing in the library. I've enjoyed working with the public of all ages. I enjoyed finding answers to things. I just found, I'm curious anyway, so it's a great job for people who are curious, So back then, you really had to have a master's of library science in order to get ahead, and I really wanted to get ahead. I went to library school, which was actually, I joked that that was the worst two years of my life. I worked full-time. I went to library school two classes a semester, and I was currently working in Glen Burnie, so I would leave work at five o'clock and get onto  295 to go to University of Maryland. That's where I got my master's in library science. That's what it's called back then, library science. I think it's information science now. And I went - I wanted to go all the way through because I thought, if I stop, I'll never go, so go again. I went through the summer. Luckily, I had someone to go with who is now my wife, so evidently, all those years in the car commuting, we bonded, but we went to library school together. We ate dinner in the car, all kinds of weird foods, what we laugh about. We had spaghetti in the car on the way to College Park. When I got my master's degree, the library was currently having a downturn in the economy,  and there was a job freeze, so I had to wait a year and a half before I actually got a job as a librarian. I was a librarian for a couple of years, and I was promoted to a department head in a large  branch, and then I got to become a branch manager at the Maryland City at Russell Branch,  which was a fairly new branch and which got me interested in construction. The branch was a pretty state-of-the-art for its time, and I got to learn a lot of facilities with that so I was a branch manager for six years, and then I became the head of administrator and  borrower services, which was a weird hybrid job where I was in charge of facilities for the library. This is all still in Anne Arundel County, and I was in charge of borrower services, which was the whole circulation function, so basically it was two different jobs that did not go  together. They were not complementary jobs, so I did that, and I really got a lot more facilities  experience. Then there was an opening in Prince George's County for, back then it was called an associate director for administrative services. I was really interested, Prince George's County was right next door, it had a good reputation as a library system, and it had a very generous CIP, and they were building libraries, and that's what I wanted to do. Anne Arundel County was not building libraries. All I really did was just take care of repairs, so it was good. I thought it would be good. I thought, let me just put in, I'll just put in and see if I can interview, just curious to see if I can interview. I was happy with my job, but let me see if I can get an interview. So I got an interview, and I was interviewed, it was in the old Administrative Offices, which was next door to the old Hyattsville, and I was interviewed by then director Micki Freeny, and Associate Director for Human Resources, Jo Schultz, and associate director for public services, Evelyn Tchiyuka, who all have since retired, but they were really great people to work with. And they asked me back for a second interview, so I went back for a second interview, and I was offered the job, and I've been here for over 16 years, and my job title has changed multiple times. At first I was the Associate Director for Administrative Services, then I was the Associate Director for Support Services, and then I was the Chief Operating Officer for Support Services. So I think it just shows you how management and libraries have changed over the years, but my titles have changed. One of the things that we did, because in the county, they don't understand, of course they don't understand the library, but they don't understand what we do in the library. So we tried to make, we tried to bring our titles, like how the schools do it. So the schools have a CEO, and then the schools have Chief Operating Officers, and once we switched it with that, the county understood what we did. So it was much more, because I was an Associate Director, but I equaled a Deputy Director in the county. We don't have a deputy director title. So in terms of where you were on the hierarchy, it works out better. So the Chief Operating officer and CEO level works out better for people to understand. That was a lot of things, but I've been in a library for a long, long time. My career has been almost 42 years. So I've done a lot of things and seen a lot of things.

• 07:44 Hannah: So it sounds like you saw a lot of different facets of, different kinds of library work in Anne Arundel County where you started out, and then it was your interest in construction that kind of brought you over to the Prince George's County side?

• 07:58 Michael: It was. I really, I hadn't, you know, I'd never worked in construction before I had that interest when I was the branch manager of a new branch, when I became the, in charge of facilities for Anne Arundel County, I was really interested, but I really wanted to build a library. I wanted to be in the, I would like, really wanted to have the opportunity to build a library and I could see that Prince George's was doing that. So that was my, it's interesting, one of my early loves in libraries was Readers’ Advisory. So I loved suggesting books to people. And I loved it when people would come back to me and say, I love that book you gave me. Can you give me another one? Even if they said they didn't like it, so they came back to me and at least we still had some rapport. So I've had some, you know, then I got really interested in construction because, you know,  you don't stay the same your whole career. And I did a lot in Readers Advisory. I wrote a book, Blood, Bedlam, Bullets, and Badguys: a Readers Guide to Adventure/Suspense.  I've done national presentations on it at ALA, PLA, at various library systems nationally. I won award- the Alibeth Martin Award from the Public Library Association for my Readers’ Advisory work. So that, I felt like I'd done a lot of that. I wanted to do something else. They, the publisher wanted me to write another book and I was like, no, I had one book in me and it really tore me apart. I really am impressed by people who authored it because it's, for me, even though it was a nonfiction book, it was just a lot of work.

• 09:33 Hannah:  Oh, sure. Now, I had a college professor who said that he'd learned, he'd mastered Greek, he'd mastered  Latin, he'd mastered various modern languages. He said the hardest thing he ever did was to write a book.

• 09:45 Michael: So I feel for authors, but I was like, no, I've read a book. I can say I'm a published author. I'm not doing it anymore. So yeah, so then, then construction facilities that got really, that was my next great love.

• 09:58 Hannah: You mentioned the term CIP, that do you mind defining that for our listeners who may not be familiar with it?

• 10:03 Michael: Sure. So that's the Capital Improvement Project, which is, program actually, Capital Improvement Program,  which is money that is set aside every year through the sale of bonds that the library uses to build new libraries and to renovate their existing libraries. So the voters, every general election, get to vote on the library's bonds. And then the county sells the bonds in New York, and then they keep the money under our  direction. They don't give us the money to do whatever we want, but under their direction, under our direction they build the libraries. So unlike other library systems in the state, very few of them have that, where they rely on the county to give them the money to build their libraries, but we have the bond money to do that.

• 10:54 Hannah:  Thank you. In your perspective, what makes the PGCMLS libraries different from other libraries, if anything?

• 11:04 Michael: No, I think, I think the staff are very dedicated. I think the staff know that they are helping people who really need it. I mean, there's a really, I think there's a real divide in this county in terms of the haves and have nots, especially the digital divide, you know, people, when I talk to reporters or more affluent people, they're shocked that people don't have internet in their house, you know, and it's like people think that it's like, I mean, it is a utility, but I mean, it's not like your water and your electricity, I mean, it's expensive. People can't afford it. I mean, they can afford a device, but they can't afford the connected one. And everything we do nowadays is tied to the internet. So I think that's something that our staff are very dedicated in helping the disadvantaged. I think we're different in terms of our building program. We've been very lucky to have had the funds to renovate our existing libraries. I mean, when I came here, I was astounded at the size of some of our libraries that we had then. I mean, I got lost one time in the basement at Greenbelt, you know, and the old Laurel was built as a bomb shelter, so they had to bring in multiple bulldozers when they tore that down. And I mean, like Oxon Hill and Bowie, they're just huge. And but what we've always been telling the county to is, yeah, we build these libraries, but then we have to keep them up. So, you know, we've done multiple renovations on our oldest libraries as well. But I think that's something that makes us different is that we maintain our libraries. We put libraries where they're needed in the community. I think the PGCMLS is, we've said this. This is we are, you know, a first tier library, we've won awards from the Urban Libraries Council. We've won awards from ALA. We've won awards from multiple organizations that recognize that we were innovative and we're creative. So that's what I think.

• 13:16 Hannah: I had no idea that the basement of Laurel used to be a bomb shelter. That is mindblowing to me.

• 13:22 Michael: It used to have signs. You know, those bomb shelter signs. I mean, it wasn't a bomb. It was a fallout shelter. Fallout shelter. Yeah. Well, they expected you to survive the nuclear bomb. And somebody said the Greenbelt was too because the walls of Greenbelt are so thick.

• 13:36 Hannah: I could believe that looking at the basement of Greenbelt. It’s bananas down there.
• 13:41 Michael: I would say that that would be a great place to film a horror movie.
• 13:44 Hannah:  For sure.
• 13:45 Michael: They told me that in the old days it used to be, that's where the printing, they used to have a printing press and the art department was over there.

• 13:56 Hannah: What is the most challenging aspect of working in library leadership?
• 14:00 Michael: I think there's a couple of them. Balancing the needs of the staff and the library system. I know that I can't please the staff all the time. And sometimes they don't understand why we're doing what we're doing. We really have to fight for every penny we get. So it's really important that we make sure that our funders and our stakeholders know what we do because they don't know what we do. The public doesn't know what we do. People who get hired here don't know what they're in for. They think, oh, this is a great place to work. I can read all day. I know that many, I always joke with staff that when you go to a party or something like that, people say, what do you do? I'm working in the library. Oh, it must be nice to read all day. Yeah, it would be nice to read all day, but none of us have that opportunity. So one of the things I'm looking forward to doing in retirement is being able to read all day. So I think that that's a difficult challenge is, and also because we don't have the funding that really makes us, what we really need, I mean, we, we, I don't like to tell that to the county,  but we squeeze every penny until we can get whatever we can get out of it. And I think what we've been able to accomplish by being very thrifty is good, but we shouldn't  have to be that way. We should be getting more money. I mean, the amount of my schools and the community college is amazing compared to our tiny slice. So I think juggling funding is, is a hard challenge of the part. Dealing with personnel issues is challenging. You know, it's not just, I don't just, I'm not just in charge of supervising my direct reports, but I have my whole division that ultimately reports to me, so dealing with that. So I think there's, that's the challenging part. I think that the, I'm trying to think of the word I want to use, the great part of working in the library is that you get this management as you get to see the outcome of results. I'm very project oriented, so I want to see what I've done. And for me, once I can see it done, so, and I can say yes, I did that. So to me, that's the best part that makes it, that makes it all worth it to me.

• 16:18 Hannah:  I guess one of the nice things about construction is that there's like a tangible physical result to see at the end, which I feel like maybe I'm speculating is in some ways more satisfying than something that's a spreadsheet.

• 16:32 Michael: Yes, it is really I, because you can see, I mean, I look around this, this Prince George's Room and I remember, I mean, it is an homage to the old Prince George's room and the old Hyattsville, but I remember that we looked at that and all the, all the decisions we made to kind of like, you know, make it emulate that room, but it's a hundred times more. I mean, that's nice. You can go and you can say, look at that, that's worth all the hard work. We built Hyattsville during the pandemic and it was an incredibly, incredibly good project. So it's nice to see that it's done. I know that I'm really picky and I don't like anything changed or anything, you know, moved around or anything like that. And that's just because I was here the whole time. So I just wanted to stay as nice as it was.

• 17:25 Hannah: If someone is interested in working in library management, what would you say to encourage them to start a career in public libraries?

• 17:31 Michael: Well, what I would, the first thing I would say is you're going to, if you want to go  up the ladder in libraries, you're going to have to get used to conflict because that's what we deal with. A lot of people who are interested in libraries have a problem with conflict. And I'm not saying mean, nasty conflict, it's just disagreement and supervision. I know a lot of people don't like to supervise other people. Nobody really likes to do it. But there are no jobs really in library management unless it's a one-off job where you don't supervise them. And it would be nice if we could give promotions to people based on how good they are helping library, helping people find something in the library. But they're really, unless you go to an academic library, there really isn't that way. So I would say get used to conflict and be ready to supervise people. And also, you know what? And get involved. I would say this too, one of the great things I did in my career was to get involved in the Maryland Library Association. And I was a Library Associate, but I learned how to run meetings. I learned how to do public speaking. I learned how to put a project together. And I think that that, that, that was something I would not have gotten as a Library Associate. I wouldn't have been given those opportunities, but because I reached out to a professional organization and joined it, that really helped me. So I would say that join a professional organization like the Maryland Library Association. Take some public speaking classes, because that's another thing that people don't realize you're going to do as, as you move up in library management, is you're going to have to talk in front of groups. And I know that public speaking is one of the things that one of the most worst phobias people have. But if you can feel comfortable, at least get up there and talk in front of people, it will  help your career and be prepared to supervise me.

• 19:36 Hannah:  That's a good collection of practical advice there. Can you tell us about a special memory or anecdote in your work?

• 19:47 Michael: I've had a lot of them. I think a lot of them, I don't know, some of them can be as simple as, I know people are shocked that I used to do storytimes in my early career, I seem like the least children's librarian there is, but I would remember when I would do storytimes and then you go out to lunch and one of the children had been your storytime class a couple years before would point you out and run over to you and I loved doing baby storytimes. I know that when baby story time started in the library, everybody was against it because they were like, oh, they don't pay any attention, they don't pay any attention. But I was like, I'll do it because it's easy, you know, you do the same stuff over and over again, same songs, the same stories, the same everything. And the kids just sort of sat there like just a lump. But I had a mother come into me, come to me and then say, you know, my son does just sits there, but then when we go home, he sings the song. So you know, that's a good thing. So that's a nice anecdote. I had some, I had an opportunity when I was doing readers’ advisory work nationally to meet some famous authors. I got to meet my all time favorite author, which was Madeleine L’Engle.The Wrinkle in Time was my favorite book as a kid. So I read that multiple times. I went to a private party that a publisher had and she was there and I got to meet her and I was like truly a groupie. I was, you know, I was, you know, I told her that she was my favorite author and that I had read The Wrinkle in Time so many times and she, you know, reached out and patted my hand. I'm sure she'd heard the same thing so many times, but she was so gracious. So that, you know, that was a neat thing to be able to see and meet one of your childhood, you know, loves. So that was a great thing. I think that, another special memory I have is when we won the American Institute of Architects, American Library Association National Design Award for Laurel, for the design of Laurel and which had, we wanted, now I don't remember, it was in the, maybe about five years ago  and it had been the first time that a Maryland library had won since the seventies. So that was really memorable. I got to go to New Orleans at the American Library Association Conference and accept the award and with our architect, Grimm and Parker who designed it. So that was another special memory I have. So yes, I have a lot of special memories.

• 22:36 Hannah: Not to put you on the spot, but since you mentioned storytime, did you have any favorite storytime books or songs you did at the time?

• 22:44 Michael:  I did. Yes, I do. I remember, I used to do the fingerplay Five Little Candles. What I did was I memorized, when I started doing storytimes, I memorized three finger plays and I did them every time because I thought I've got all my things to remember. Five Little Candles, I did that one and the monkeys in the tree that the alligator eats, I forget when that one's called Five Little Monkeys, Mr. Alligator or something, but yeah, used to do that. And it was funny too, because I don't know if they still do this or not, flannel boards. And it was really funny because the children would come up and stare at the flannel board, like it was a TV, like it was going to start moving or something. They were fascinated by flannel boards and puppets and I do puppets and one of the things I do now is every Prince George's County Library has quite a puppet collection because I loved puppets.

• 23:36 Hannah: Yes.
• 23:37 Michael:  I loved puppets when I was doing it, so everybody gets one and everybody gets a squirrel because squirrels are one of my, squirrels are my favorite animals. So I always, every branch gets, even if they don't order it, they get a squirrel puppet.

• 23:52 Hannah: It's a mandatory squirrel.
• 23:54 Michael: It is a mandatory squirrel, yes.  You must, whether you use it or not, you are getting a squirrel.

• 24:00 Hannah:  So yeah. All right. So you're the one responsible for the epic collection of Folkmanis puppets at each branch.

• 24:03 Michael: I am.  I am.  All right.

• 24:06 Hannah: Well, thank you for that. I always, when I worked at South Bowie, I loved the giant tarantula puppet. I used that in storytime for the Itsy Bitsy Spider, but we had to invent the lyrics because it wasn't an itsy bitsy spider, it was a giant hairy spider.

• 24:20 Michael: It's funny. I let the staff pick out what they want and then I just, I pick out other ones they get. So they probably, when they open the box, they're like, we didn't order these, but I'm like, those are Michael puppets. I liked them. Like I like the lion puppets. So usually they get the lion puppet and yeah, so I love, I've always loved doing puppets when I did storytime.

• 24:38 Hannah:  Can’t go wrong with puppets.
• 24:39 Michael: No, you can't.
• 24:42 Hannah: Can you, with a word or a short sentence, describe the PGCMLS libraries?
• 24:49 Michael: The system or the branches or?
• 24:51 Hannah: either or whatever inspires you.
• 24:52 Michael: I think that I think it's creative and innovative. I mean, we've tried things, that's probably another thing that, you know, we push a lot of new stuff out on the staff and sometimes we don't always try it out all the way and it doesn't work and we, but we do pull it back. I think of some of the things that we were the first for, I mean, we were the first Polaris library. That's our Integrative Library System that runs as our reserves and our checkouts. We were the first ones in Maryland and then many other of the Maryland libraries followed us. So we were the first ones to use, the way we do our website, we've done a lot of innovative  things. I think that our staff should be proud. We're known too. I mean, I go to meetings, national meetings, national organization meetings and people call up to me and they know Prince George is coming. So I think that staff should be proud that, you know, I think we, as I've said this earlier, we are a world-class library.

• 25:56 Hannah:  I feel like we have a really epic collection of online resources. I just, I look, when I look at other counties, I feel like we have a really good selection.

• 26:07 Michael: And one of the things that, that a previous, before I came, but I always said that she did a really good job. Valerie Pajaki, who was our head of collection development, pulled us out of the statewide Overdrive digital library. And we have our own collection and we have, I think, a much better collection than available. I hear, sometimes I hear from other people in the state, you know, about what, what a great, that they get a, they get a Prince George's library card just so they can check out our digital, Overdrive books. So yes, I think we have, we have a very good, our, our collection development budget. When I first came here, it was almost 5 million dollars. And now it's under 3 million. And again, talking about pinching those pennies, our selectors do a great job in meeting the  needs and the demands of our customers. I think we have a really good collection. I always, I always like to tell this, that I did 25% of our circulation is children's picture books. So every branch, no matter how small, has a very comprehensive picture book collection. So another thing that we did was, we embraced use of data collection and data analysis. So we, we know down to, you know, the exact title, which will circulate and which are most popular. The state of Maryland was so impressed with what, what we do that they funded a statewide  project to expand our statistics, gathering in data visualization to the whole state. So that's another thing where we were ahead of the game.

• 27:52 Hannah: I didn't realize that. I knew we collected a lot of statistics. I didn't realize we had inspired a statewide initiative.

• 27:58 Michael: We did. And they fund it to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars. It's, it's money that the state library gets from the federal government that's allocated for libraries. And we actually met with the people from the federal department a couple years ago who were quite impressed at what we were doing.

• 28:22 Hannah: So switching subjects a bit, perhaps going back to your reader's advisory roots, can you share a good read or perhaps a good tip for reader's advisory?

• 28:36 Michael: My good tip is one that I heard many, many years ago from someone who was, had written a book about readers’ advisory, was never apologize for your reading tastes. So I always make fun about the fact that I have very, very lowbrow reading tastes. And I'm not going to apologize for whatever you read. I remember when I'd work in a branch and kids would come in and they would want the same  book over and over and over again. And the mom or the dad would say, Oh, you've already read that. Why do you get something different? And it's just, they just liked it, you know, or, and then I remember, you know, look how comic books have become so popular and become manga and anime. And I mean, that's, you know, they, when we used to have comic books in the library, parents were all concerned about that. But I mean, it's just as long as long as you're reading, you're reading. So never apologize. Those ladies who would come in and check out a hundred Harlequin romances at a time. I mean, you know, or the men in their westerns, it's just whatever you want to read. That's what I say. 
• 29.39 Hannah: Read what you like.

• 29:40 Michael: Read what you like and don't apologize. And don't feel like you have to read the classics.

• 29:51 Hannah: In your opinion, what makes public libraries important in our community?
• 29:56 Michael: Oh, wow, well, I talked a little bit earlier about the digital divide. So where else are you going to – libraries are the only place where you can go that anybody can come into as long as you follow the rules, you know, if you go to the mall or you go to Starbucks and if you don't buy anything, they're going to ask you to leave. So we're the last place, I think, where you can go. Anybody can go. I always tell the county that our buildings are open the most of any county building, and they try to see what the schools are. And I'm like, yeah, but not everybody's allowed in the schools. 
• 30:30 Hannah: Right. 
• 30:31 Michael: So I think that for a lot of people who are on the edge that this is kind of their last hope sometimes to come to get help or use the internet. Lots. I remember during the week, there was Hurricane Katrina and the libraries where the places where people went to connect to their loved ones or not so much here in Maryland, but in the South or even get to the insurance. I just think sometimes it's the last hope for a lot of people. And I always tell this when I do orientation, I tell this to to the new staff is that everyday you may not realize it, but you make a difference in somebody's life. You know, even giving a book to somebody could change their life or make a difference. I see children come out of storytime or other programs and they're just so happy. I remember when we renovated New Carrollton, we decided to do underwater being for the children's area. And I made the biggest mistake I ever made in my career, which was to get an aquarium. But I had a customer call me up complaining that why is the library getting an aquarium and I said, you know, for a lot of these children easily, they will never see a  you know, they will never see anything like that. They will never have the opportunity to go to a real aquarium. And, you know, it's just something to, you know, inspire so I'll go back on the aquarium story. So every one of our branches, children's branches, when they're renovated or built new, have an interactive children's area with a different so a discovery and then something. So New Carrollton was Discovery Reef. It was an underwater theme. I was like, oh, that's great idea. We're going to do an aquarium. So it has a 250 gallon saltwater aquarium. So the day we had our grand opening, I was like, oh, this is, you know, kids are going to love this. You don't realize how difficult it is, an aquarium is, though. I thought they would, just we would just get the fish, dump them in the aquarium and it would be fine. But each fish has to go in individually and has to be in there for a week to get used to it. And then they put another fish in. So we had done all that. We had the grand opening and I thought, oh, the kids are going to run right to the aquarium because we even built the, like a little step up so that little kids could stand and stare at looking at it. And the thing they went to was this bubble tube that we had added at the last minute, which was like sort of like about five feet high and changed colors and bubbles came up out of it. And we just sort of threw that in as a last minute thing. And they love that - we're hypnotized by the bubble tube. So we had the aquarium and then the pandemic came. So I had even, I had even researched aquariums about what happens if power goes out. The aquarium has an emergency power supply that will last for four days. So in case that during a holiday weekend, the power went out, staff wouldn't come back to dead fish. So then the pandemic came and we had, to be fed. So we weren't allowed out. So a building & groundskeeper volunteer to go in once a week and feed the fish. So that was good. So thank you, Clinton Dickerson, for your, your service to that. And then, of course, you don't realize that the fish started eating each other. So then we were down to one fish, one big fat fish that had eaten all the other fish. So I said, when people asked me what lesson have you learned from the building buildings is like never put in an aquarium.

• 34:34 Hannah: It's like the nature channel.
• 34:37  Michael Yes, well, circle of life, you know.
• 34:41 Hannah: That's educational, I guess.
• 34:45 Michael: And then, you know, sometimes staff will say they'll kind of work in one of the dead up at the top of it. So yeah, so now nothing living unless it's it's a plant like we did the plant wall. That's OK, but nothing living that can eat. That was my one thing. That's my one bit of advice, building a new library, no aquarium.

• 35:05 Hannah: It was a nice idea.
• 35:07 Michael: It was because I tried to make, you know, each branch has a different theme. So you start to run, you know, to the well one too many times.

• 35:16 Hannah: Fish are unpredictable. Live animals are.

• 35:20 Michael: They are, that's the thing they're very they're more unpredictable than children.
• 35:30 Hannah:  Based on your current position in the library system, can you tell us which achievements related to library construction and renovation you are most proud of?

• 35:39 Michael: Besides the aquarium? Yes, that's at least part of that. I think the fact that we have our libraries are experiences. I think that when we built Laurel, here's another story. So when we built Laurel, they had just found dinosaur bones in, in a park in Laurel, and I was all excited because I thought they were going to be like real dinosaur bones and they I got to see them and they were, looked like chicken bones. It was a very tiny, tiny dinosaur. So I was like, OK, well, let's make the theme dinosaurs. So I had been on a cruise and I was in the casino and they had a glass floor with, like treasure in it. This is a really neat idea. So the first day we met with architects for designing the children's area, I said, I want dinosaur bones under a glass floor in the children's area. So it looks like when you were digging up the foundation of the building, they found dinosaur bones like down the street in the Laurel Park. But I said, I want a real dinosaur.

• 36:40 Hannah:  No chicken bones.
• 36:41 Michael: No chicken bones. I was like, no chicken bones. I want a real dinosaur. So the architect, you know, he was, looked me right in the eye and said, OK, we can do that. Do you want a volcano too? And I was like, yeah, we want a volcano too. So in Laurel, we have a Nanotyrannus dinosaur skeleton, full skeleton. A Nanotyrannus was either a small version of a tyrannosaurus rex or a baby one. They don't know. And it was really exciting. The guy we bought, we bought it from a company, replica. It would have been cheaper to buy real bones from some smuggler or something. But we bought a replica and the man came. And I got one of the things I always remember. The bones came in a box. He sat inside the thing and put it all together like a jigsaw puzzle. He was a former. He had been a pale. He was a paleontologist, but he said this made more money. And I was like, yeah, based on how expensive those bones were. And it was neat because I got to say, OK, can you move it's, curl its tail up a little bit more or put its hand, paw, whatever you call a dinosaur thing. I said, can you move that here? So that was really neat. And then we put the they put the glass on top of it. And it was, is structural glass. And the staff, when the staff went to the building, they wouldn't stand on it. They were afraid they were going to break it. I was like, no, no, it's it's, they make bridges out of it. No, no, we're not going to. So when we had the grand opening and the kids, we had an elementary school class and the kids came in and the children's in the first thing did was jump up and down and put their nose up against it. And then so talk about the volcano. So one of the seating area in the children's area, there's a bench area that looks like a volcano with smoke and it has lights in it that looks like it's erupting. So that was. But it was funny, but when we discussed with the staff, what we were going to do with the dinosaur, a staff member now retired, the children's librarian, she said, oh, no, dinosaurs will scare children. You shouldn't do that.

• 38:51 Hannah: What? Kids love dinosaurs.

• 38:53 Michael: I know, I know. I was like that, too. Yeah. One of the most popular books in the library, you know, kids. So, so it was that to me, because, you know, I'm an adult, I don't know what kids are going to like, but can you try to think about what they'll like? And when they came in and they were just so enamored with that as dinosaur bones, they really made it made it special for me.

• 39:14 Hannah: I mean, that's like one of the top reference questions in little kids is where are your dinosaur books? And then they want to tell you what their favorite dinosaur is. And, you know 

• 39:23 Michael: I know. And it's like, you know, that's where it's always been. I mean, you know, I have been in libraries for 42 years. And that's one of the things kids of all the generations have changed, because they're still interested in dinosaurs. Oh, yes. So that's one of like, another one of my great memories.

• 39:46 Hannah: Is there anything we didn't ask you about today that you wanted to share?  Some relevant experience we didn't get to.

• 39:52 Michael: Well, you know what? I always like to say this is a shock's younger generation is that, you know, I started in the library and we didn't have computers. So we did not have computers in the library and people. Younger people can't imagine what it's like without computers. We actually had to look up books and look up things for reference. Drunks will call from the bar because they were having an argument and they would want to know about - usually about some -we had so many television and movie reference books because they always had something about that. Who was the one that starred in this comedy back in 1943 And, it was, it was a lot harder. And you had to spend a lot more time with the customer, but we couldn't help them in other ways that we're helping them now. And then when computers came, you know, the library embraced computers and for the public and the Internet. And I think that if we hadn't had done that, we hadn't have changed and been flexible, I think the libraries wouldn't be as popular as they are now. I don't think they would have survived in the way we've survived now. But we, so that that's why, you know, we, we changed, the libraries changed and that's why they are still so important. So that's why we, I, like to try new things. See, you know, maybe, what's the what's the computers of this generation? You know, what is the thing that's going to to change us but yet make us new and fresh for new generations? But yeah, I remember when we first got the computers and customers would come in, they pick up the mouse and they start talking in it. Like, you know, I'm looking for a book like it was supposed to, you know, and understand what they were saying or they would be touching that - this was before there was touchscreens. They would be thinking, this, the thing was a touchscreen.

• 41:42 Hannah: I feel like that speaking to the mouse was a scene in the fourth Star Trek movie, to make an incredibly geeky reference, when Scotty picked it up and goes, Hello, computer.

• 41:53 Michael: That's what's, that's what it was. Everybody's seen Star Trek. And then they thought the computer was going to do, that was much more ahead of it. You know, they thought it was much more ahead of its time than it was. But, you know, it was it was it was a change that it wasn't effortless. I mean, you know, we we used to have to people, they were really popular we didn't have software that let people sign up and, you know, then gave them times and we would have to write down man in blue baseball cap ten o'clock and then, you know, we would have to go over and say your time is up, somebody else is waiting. And it was a lot of, it was a lot of diplomacy that was needed.

• 42:34 Hannah: Was it hard to convince folks that they needed to get someone else in a turn?
• 42:40 Michael: Most people were willing to share. But there were some people that just, you know, I just need one more minute. I just do one minute. But it put, it put the staff in a spot because they had, they had to be the ones. It's nice now that we have the software that just says you're done, you know, shuts it down.  So, yeah. And of course, there was a lot and the question of the Internet, you know, brought a new era of pornography to the world and there was a lot of people who wanted to try that out. So we had to be like the pornography police. And, you know, and I really, I think that our profession failed us in that. The American Library Association was saying, no, no, no, you let people watch whatever they want and you shouldn't do anything. And I really think that was a mistake on their part because we were on the front lines and, you know, children will be walking around. And it was just, people complained. It was just that was a really difficult time. So when computer software got to the point where we could deal with that.

• 43:48 Hannah: Though, unfortunately, the filters don't catch everything.

• 43:50 Michael: Exactly. And that's what the American Library Association would say, too. And that you would be blocking other things out. And it was like, well, you know, you all need to come and work here a day and see what it would happen. But, you know, we could always unblock this. I had a customer call me one time and complain because we were, I'm not going to say the branch, the branch was filtered and he couldn't watch pornography. And the fact that he actually, you know, said that to me and I was like, well, and, you know, and I pay my taxes and I should have the right. And I was like, you have the right in your home when you pay for your own internet.

• 44:33 Hannah: Sure. This is a public space.
• 44:35 Michael: Right, exactly.
• 44:36 Hannah: You can't do the same thing as in a public space you can do in your home.

• 44:40 Michael: Exactly. But she didn't want to understand.

• 44:46 Hannah:  Ah yes, public libraries 
• 44:48 Michael: Public libraries. Yes. But you know what? You always have stories to tell.

• 44:52 Hannah: It's never boring.
• 44:53 Michael: It is never boring. No, it's never boring.
• 44:58 Hannah: Well, thank you very much for coming to talk with us today.

• 45:01 Michael: I hope that you don't have to edit me too much.

• 45:05 Hannah: No, no, that was great. If there's nothing you want us to edit out, then.

• 45:10 Michael: I'm fine with that. I didn't say anything that embarrassed anybody else but myself. So it's OK.

• 45:14 Hannah: I mean, if you if you think of it and we can send you like a, you know, a transcript or. Oh, that's.

Hannah Erickson

Michael Gannon

Hyattsville Library